005 - That Just Happened
02-01-2014, 01:08 PM
Post: #11
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
Quote:I can guarantee you there are plenty of memories that my parents have of me that are not good, and probably deservedly so.

In the last podcast, Carson and Brett talked about how admirable the motives of Jehovah Witnesses are when you look at their actions from the perspective of their beliefs. I used that same approach of viewing things from another's perspective and belief systems to this parental discussion.

There are a handful of negative parental memories like the black girlfriend that still occasionally pop in my head today (although it is rare nowadays), but I never really think about what their memories of my actions might be that might still cause them anger. I have spent the last hour thinking about how they might feel anger about my actions in the past. I didn't think about those events from my perspective, but from theirs.

I can't imagine the anger and shame I caused my father when I got busted making counterfeit money as a teenager, and perhaps that angry memory still pops in his head today. He was a poor kid who honestly worked his ass off to provide a better life for a wife and 4 kids, and I did that. I can honestly say I never really thought about how that must have hurt him.

My mother still bugs me to get my youngest daughter baptized by the Catholic church, and I don't see my wife and I doing that. She has this belief that only people who are baptized can enter the gates of heaven. I find it beyond absurd that some loving God would not let my daughter into a heaven because her paperwork wasn't in order. But nevertheless, she believe this. If I really think about my decision to not baptize my daughter from her perspective and belief system, she envisions a scenario where we will all be a happy family again in heaven, but her one granddaughter won't be there. And as ridiculous as it is to me, that decision of mine has to really hurt and anger her. I don't know - maybe the loving thing to do is to baptize our daughter... Of course we would feel like the biggest phonies in the world going through that process, but it would bring so much joy to my mother. I have to think about that.
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02-02-2014, 04:49 PM
Post: #12
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
regedit Wrote:My mother still bugs me to get my youngest daughter baptized by the Catholic church, and I don't see my wife and I doing that. She has this belief that only people who are baptized can enter the gates of heaven. I find it beyond absurd that some loving God would not let my daughter into a heaven because her paperwork wasn't in order. But nevertheless, she believe this. If I really think about my decision to not baptize my daughter from her perspective and belief system, she envisions a scenario where we will all be a happy family again in heaven, but her one granddaughter won't be there. And as ridiculous as it is to me, that decision of mine has to really hurt and anger her. I don't know - maybe the loving thing to do is to baptize our daughter... Of course we would feel like the biggest phonies in the world going through that process, but it would bring so much joy to my mother. I have to think about that.

Man, that's a heavy fucking trip, as is seems to be in all things with our parents. I think what fascinates me most (in recent times) about parental relationships is that its pretty much the one "forced" relationship in our lives, and a potential goldmine of teachings if we can open ourselves up to it. In any other case where we don't get along with someone such as a friend, co-worker, lover, or even other family members, we can pretty much write them off and after some time has passed its really not too much of a big deal. It doesn't seem to work that way with our parents.

As someone who has been on the outs with both parents at different times in my life, I knew in both experiences that it was something that would have to be sorted out eventually. And in doing so, I received lessons about myself and my relationships with others that I don't think I could have gotten any other way. Once I allowed them to be, my parents unknowingly became two of my greatest teachers.

Interesting timing on all this, as tomorrow's podcast covers my first meeting with my father in over three years. I'll let the podcast do the talking on that and will be looking forward to hearing others thoughts on the findings.
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02-03-2014, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 11:55 AM by whippoorwill.)
Post: #13
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
Hey Regedit!

Quote:My mother still bugs me to get my youngest daughter baptized by the Catholic church, and I don't see my wife and I doing that. She has this belief that only people who are baptized can enter the gates of heaven. I find it beyond absurd that some loving God would not let my daughter into a heaven because her paperwork wasn't in order. But nevertheless, she believe this. If I really think about my decision to not baptize my daughter from her perspective and belief system, she envisions a scenario where we will all be a happy family again in heaven, but her one granddaughter won't be there. And as ridiculous as it is to me, that decision of mine has to really hurt and anger her. I don't know - maybe the loving thing to do is to baptize our daughter... Of course we would feel like the biggest phonies in the world going through that process, but it would bring so much joy to my mother. I have to think about that.

I can totally relate. My dad's a preacher, and my husband's mom is an ex-nun. There was quite a bit of pressure to get our kids baptized, but we couldn't bring ourselves to do it. Both my husband and I are disillusioned with religion in general and with the institution of the church in particular. We couldn't see ourselves imposing a belief system on our kids when we had no faith in it ourselves. (I don't think I have the right to impose a belief system on my kids even if I do believe in it myself.) If our kids choose Christianity, then that's all fine, but we wanted them to feel like they had a choice. We adopt so many beliefs and patterns from our parents entirely unwittingly, and it adds up to such a load to bear (literally!). When the beliefs are seen as untrue and the unconsious patterns are discovered, I try to forgive myself and let them go. I feel like the only gift I can really give to my kids is freedom from my unconscious beliefs and habits.

You must do as you think right, of course, but I wouldn't rush in to that one.

Love!

Hey Carson!
Quote:I soooooo want to nitpick this, but I realize that is just me resisting the truth. Doh I want to say "Her far out belief is right-wing fundamentalist Christianity and I don't live by any idea (anymore) in yoga, non-duality or drugs" but I can see that that is just me fighting the truth. You are right. Not in the specifics, but in the feeling of rejection on both sides.

I know! I'm sorry! Gotta admire your courage putting all that out there. Brett too! Smile

If it makes you feel any better, I can write novels about the things my parents do that send me into conniptions.

Mom: "Why don't you fix your husband a plate, Lizzie dear."
Liz: "Gaaah! Because I have three kids already and don't want a fourth!!" Bang

Biggrin

And here's a kicker. I was soooo angry with Dad for putting my mom, sis and me through the experience of being the preacher's wife and daughters in rural Missouri. And here I am organizing meditation retreats and shit. Biggrin


Love!
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02-03-2014, 12:07 PM
Post: #14
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
My parents are hardcore fundamentalist Christians and my wife's parents are Mormon, but neither pressured us to baptize our kids, thank god. I think both sets of parents realized it would be silly (and potentially worse) to suggest it and thankfully just left it alone. I do feel your pain regedit in looking at the situation from your parents perspective, but if they were devout Satanists and desperately wanted your kids to be involved in a blood letting/drinking ceremony or something, would that change how you felt? I like to take inquiries like this to an extreme example because it usually helps me to find clarity. If I can find the exact same scenario in a different, more extreme example I can usually see the current scenario in a new and less personal/involved way, which usually helps to show the correct path to take.

Again, big ups to you for putting such an awesome inquiry out there for us to chew on. Love it.

metal
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02-05-2014, 12:13 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2014 12:15 AM by regedit.)
Post: #15
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
Thanks for your perspectives guys. I have thought about it a bit, and I decided against baptizing my daughter. In fact, I now think it was my stupidest idea of 2014 so far Tongue When I read whippoorwill and Carson's response, I first didn't get where you were coming from. My original reaction was "I am not going to raise my daughter Catholic or indoctrinate her with Catholic beliefs. This will just be a quick procedural thing to bring joy to my Mom". But then I thought about it some more Eureka. When I was playing out this baptism scenario in my head, I was picturing what it was like when I got my 2 older daughters baptized. They were infants, and the babies have absolutely nothing to do with the ceremony other than having some water poured on their heads and crying. With infants, it is the parents who need to bullshit the priest and promise that they will raise the kids Catholic, blah, blah, blah..., and that is what I was envisioning with my youngest daughter. But there is a big difference. My youngest daughter will be 5 this month, and she will be subjected to the process and ideology. They may even ask us to enroll her in CCD classes, or whatever they call them these days. I have no frickin idea why I didn't think of that before, but there is no way I am doing that. And that internal discussion is over Smile
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02-05-2014, 12:53 AM
Post: #16
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
regedit Wrote:And that internal discussion is over

horns
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02-18-2014, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 02-18-2014 10:40 AM by whippoorwill.)
Post: #17
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
Hey Carson!

I know the discussion on this thread is pretty much over, but I wanted to offer you some humor. I love this song. It's soooo close to home. Biggrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU

Hey Brett!

brett Wrote:Sorry to threadjack, but this line really struck something that I've been looking into a bit recently. I've (reluctantly) started inquiring into where exactly my current "spiritual" framework is drawing its information from, and have, without looking very hard, found more than I'd like to be from adopted belief.

Not threadjacking at all! This is something I run into all the time.

Love!
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02-18-2014, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 02-18-2014 11:18 AM by CarsonZi.)
Post: #18
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
HA! I just peed myself a little watching that! Hahaha. As I watched it I noticed thoughts of wanting to send this video to a whole bunch of my Christian friends and family with the subject line "Squirrel starts a Revival" but I don't think a single one of them would appreciate it. :P
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02-20-2014, 07:53 AM
Post: #19
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
:-D Oh, they might have seen it. Ray Stevens is an artist of great renown. :-D
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02-20-2014, 09:57 AM
Post: #20
RE: 005 - That Just Happened
Hi guys,

Just finished listening to this one. So far, it's my favorite. Well done!Worship

I'm going to check out the Ram Das video. It was actually Ram Das who said that if you think you're so enlightened, go visit your parents. Wise words!
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