009 - The Kumare Incident
02-24-2014, 11:00 AM
Post: #21
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
regedit Wrote:The only thing that surprised me when you were talking about the movie was that you didn't seem to have any sympathy for the poor yoga teacher who angrily walked out.

This is likely part of my bias towards the yoga community, and teachers in general (at least those who willingly label themselves as teachers) showing. Having been deeply identified as a "yoga teacher" for several years I have a hard time being sympathetic to people who I see as willingly putting themselves in a teaching role. A great example of being able to justify anything to reinforce our current belief set.

regedit Wrote:It seemed like the primary difference we had when watching the movie is you were thinking more about how the movie would impact the viewers, and I was thinking more about how the movie would impact Kumare's followers.

Yeah, that's probably correct. I didn't/don't feel that concerned for the followers. I truly see everything that happens as being required, even if I can't understand it, so it's hard for me to get wound up in the followers suffering around being deceived. We are all constantly being deceived, by the media, by societal leaders, by ourselves, so it's hard for me to take a shit on one "deceiver" when I see us all as deceivers. I don't think Vikram had malicious intent (that's just my opinion) and in fact I actually think he was doing what he thought was the right thing to do. And from my perspective the result was a great teaching. Yes, people got hurt in the process, but people get hurt all the time and what hurts someone is directly related to them, not what actually happened. Things happen, how we react to the happenings is where the suffering comes in. There were many participants in the documentary that were not hurt by this at all. How can different people who all partook in the same experiment come away from the experience with such dramatically different experiences? Because how we experience something is directly related to our conditioning.

I think we should try and get Vikram as a guest on the podcast so we can ask him the hard hitting questions. What say you Brett? Think you could keep from reaching through the computer and punching him in the throat so we could have a decent interview with him? Biggrin

snd
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02-24-2014, 11:31 AM
Post: #22
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
Quote:This is likely part of my bias towards the yoga community, and teachers in general (at least those who willingly label themselves as teachers) showing. Having been deeply identified as a "yoga teacher" for several years I have a hard time being sympathetic to people who I see as willingly putting themselves in a teaching role. A great example of being able to justify anything to reinforce our current belief set.

This is interesting, as my experience is the opposite. In my younger days, when I saw people doing similar shitty things I had done in the past, I either didn't care or harbored negative feelings toward them. Basically, I judged them. Nowadays, when I see people going through things that I have in the past, I feel compassion for them because I see myself in them. Not always, I still have my hangups. But for the most part.

Looking back on it, I now equate the judging to to disliking those parts of myself. Once I was able to begin to give love to even the shittiest parts of myself, I was able to give it to others who were in the same boat. Shit, maybe I need to find myself somewhere in Vikram Ghandi. Shock

Do you feel compassion for "Spiritual Teacher Carson" or do you dislike him? Because I'm thinking whichever it is, that would likely also be what translates to your feelings toward "Spiritual Teacher Whoever" in the external environment. Just a thought.

Quote:I think we should try and get Vikram as a guest on the podcast so we can ask him the hard hitting questions. What say you Brett? Think you could keep from reaching through the computer and punching him in the throat so we could have a decent interview with him?

I would love to interview that guy. Make it happen mang. metal
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02-24-2014, 11:54 AM
Post: #23
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
Brett Wrote:Shit, maybe I need to find myself somewhere in Vikram Ghandi.

Well I think my "okayness" with Vikram and his actions in the movie are related to me easily being able to see myself in him. I have, so many times, done the stupidest shit with the best of intentions that it's hard not to see Vikram doing the same thing here.

Brett Wrote:Do you feel compassion for "Spiritual Teacher Carson" or do you dislike him?

I feel compassion towards him. He was doing what he thought was right, even though he was very confused and blind. Perhaps this indicates a bit of the reason why the movie hyped me up instead of pissed me off. ;D

metal
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02-24-2014, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2014 12:03 PM by brett.)
Post: #24
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
Quote:I feel compassion towards him. He was doing what he thought was right, even though he was very confused and blind.

So why would you find it hard to feel compassion toward the teacher in the film, or others in that role?

Edit: Not trying to put you on the stand here, just trying to see if my theory pans out for future use with myself.
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02-24-2014, 12:11 PM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2014 07:24 PM by regedit.)
Post: #25
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
{I just edited a portion of what I previously wrote. I wouldn't want my older daughters to read what I wrote if I accidentally left this webpage open}

Maybe I felt for the deceived in this movie because I related to them. In my late teens I went extremely hardcore Christian - practically cult-like (Worldwide Church of God). My intentions were good, yet the disillusionment afterwards wasn't pleasant. Perhaps we both brought our personal experiences to the movie (you the teacher and me the student), and it probably slanted our perspectives.
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02-26-2014, 10:32 AM
Post: #26
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
Brett Wrote:So why would you find it hard to feel compassion toward the teacher in the film, or others in that role?

I don't. I *do* feel compassion for the teacher and the others that felt deceived by Kumare/Vikram and this film (including you Brett Tongue), I just don't exclusively feel compassion for them. I also feel compassion for Vikram.

It's a hard lesson to learn (the lesson that our beliefs are only that, beliefs, and that having them doesn't change reality), especially when still in the place where it seems reasonable to identify with the teaching role (or the identification is unconscious). I just don't think that they (the deceived) deserve *more* compassion than Vikram.

Love,
Carson
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02-26-2014, 10:53 AM
Post: #27
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
regedit Wrote:Maybe I felt for the deceived in this movie because I related to them. In my late teens I went extremely hardcore Christian - practically cult-like (Worldwide Church of God). My intentions were good, yet the disillusionment afterwards wasn't pleasant. Perhaps we both brought our personal experiences to the movie (you the teacher and me the student), and it probably slanted our perspectives.

I too had a Christian background. I grew up hard-core fundamentalist right-wing missionary style evangelical Christian. When I was 12 I realized that I was being brainwashed and this spawned "the disillusionment" you talk about. It was really a "shattering" type of event, and being the kind of Christian who, when punched, literally told the person to hit me on the other side of my face as well instead of hitting him back, the loss of this foundation was very uncomfortable. But, yes, I agree that we both/all brought our personal conditioning to the movie and this flavoured our experience of it. It happens with everything really. It's just a matter of becoming increasingly aware of the conditioning so that we can respond to situations instead of react to them.

Love,
Carson
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02-26-2014, 09:07 PM
Post: #28
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
CarsonZi Wrote:I don't. I *do* feel compassion for the teacher and the others that felt deceived by Kumare/Vikram and this film (including you Brett Tongue), I just don't exclusively feel compassion for them. I also feel compassion for Vikram.

Understood, and that actually fits with my theory so maybe it is worth investigating a bit further. The only reason I had asked was due to this earlier statement:

CarsonZi Wrote:Having been deeply identified as a "yoga teacher" for several years I have a hard time being sympathetic to people who I see as willingly putting themselves in a teaching role.

I'll pull my theoretic ramblings into another thread as not to sidetrack from the topic.
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03-05-2014, 01:17 PM
Post: #29
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
I've listened to the podcast and watched the film. I'll comment further later...

Something came up for me while listening to Brett talk about going to the Zen center. He said that he had to interview with the teacher and be a serious student to even be allowed to go. It reminded me of when I looked into learning meditation from a group. I lived in a small town, so I signed up with Meetup to find a group in a neighboring city. One group was divided. The "advanced" group was invite only. I thought that was wrong, and I never went.

Since then, the term advanced as always bothered me even in the AYP writings which resonate with me. Maybe because I identify as a beginner and want to be advanced? What the heck is an advanced meditator or an advanced yogi?Tongue
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03-05-2014, 01:33 PM
Post: #30
RE: 009 - The Kumare Incident
Yogani (of AYP) has said that his choice in using the word "Advanced" in his system refers more to the effects than the difficulty level of the practices. Would probably take me a while to find where he said it though as it may have been on the forums or it may have been in a personal communication. I do hear ya though... I had a really hard time marketing my AYP classes in yoga studios to the correct audience simply because of the word Advanced. I ended up using "AYP" the acronym instead and this solved the marketing issues.

Anyway, I totally agree with being bothered by designations of advanced meditator or yogi etc... bothered me too for a long time. Then I stopped giving a shit. Tongue

Looking forward to your thoughts on Kumare.

snd
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