001 - I'm Sorry
01-05-2014, 07:30 PM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2014 04:39 PM by brett.)
Post: #1
001 - I'm Sorry
[Image: 001_image.jpg]

001 - I'm Sorry
The first episode of Seek and Destroy, “I’m Sorry”, finds Brett beginning Michael Brown’s “The Presence Process”, while Carson struggles with his inability to apologize. Other topics include meditation experiences, mycology, Byron Katie’s “The Work”, grounding, and Carson’s background story.

Permanent Download Link: http://traffic.libsyn.com/seekanddestroy..._SORRY.mp3

Related Links
The Presence Process: http://www.thepresenceportal.com
Advanced Yoga Practices: http://www.aypsite.com
Byron Katie's "The Work": http://www.thework.com/
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01-08-2014, 11:38 AM
Post: #2
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
I still fucking hate admitting when I'm wrong and having to say sorry, even several months after this episode was recorded. That said, it takes me less time now to notice when I am wrong (sometimes it would take days or even weeks to simply just notice that I was indeed wrong) and less time to admit it and apologize. I do however still squirm and internally resist this like a little bitch, but it's getting easier with each time. horns
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01-10-2014, 01:08 AM
Post: #3
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
Hi Guys,
I'm liking the relaxed conversational manner of these podcasts. I haven't gone out of my way to check out any new spiritual material for a while but I'm glad I did, it felt like good timing for me.

I don't think I have the 'inner silence' or same experience with spiritual practices as you guys but I felt I could relate to lots of the stuff mentioned in this podcast. Maybe I have just seen the tip of ice-bergs you guys have more thoroughly explored. Anyway it felt good to hear you's relate those experiences (which I have struggled with) with a sense of ease.

I had attended a Vipasana close to two years ago now where I felt as though I disappeared, Im not sure how long I was gone for, this was the first time this had happened in meditation. Afterwards I had a heap of energy and struggled to deal with it. I also had the sense of not knowing shit. I don't think I was as conscious of that as you guys though and my experience wasn't as pronounced but I felt as though I had no foundations to cling to, I found this very distressing and in hindsight my remedy was to try continually build new foundations or engage in anything to the point of distraction. I also suffered from anxiety and panic attacks. It felt as though this might be a 'Dark night of the soul' (thats a Christian thing by the way).

Its hard to cover all the content of what has happened since then but I have also not been able to meditate with mantra since. I can also relate to anxiety seeming as though it had no origin in the mind and rather the thoughts were the fruit of the energetic condition of anxiety but I'm still not sure I'm seeing everything there. I tried byron katie etc to end anxious thoughts but it didn't help.

I can also relate to overloading during the rest period, often this would happen during savasana after an asana class.

anyways...thanks :)
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01-10-2014, 02:04 AM
Post: #4
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
Hi Narayan,

Narayan Wrote:I'm liking the relaxed conversational manner of these podcasts. I haven't gone out of my way to check out any new spiritual material for a while but I'm glad I did, it felt like good timing for me.

Thanks for the feedback. It's been a real test for both Brett and I just to release these as they are really quite personal and revealing, so it's nice to hear that you've dug it so far.

Narayan Wrote:I don't think I have the 'inner silence' or same experience with spiritual practices as you guys but I felt I could relate to lots of the stuff mentioned in this podcast.

Glad you could relate but don't be so quick to sell your own experience short. This is a big part of the intention for the podcast (for me)... to (hopefully help) show that each path is individual, what "inner silence" looks like isn't always what we think it does and that often times what we are looking for is sitting directly in front of our own faces. Often just a small shift in perspective is enough to change the entire way in which life is experienced.

Narayan Wrote:I had attended a Vipasana close to two years ago now where I felt as though I disappeared, Im not sure how long I was gone for, this was the first time this had happened in meditation. Afterwards I had a heap of energy and struggled to deal with it. I also had the sense of not knowing shit. I don't think I was as conscious of that as you guys though and my experience wasn't as pronounced but I felt as though I had no foundations to cling to, I found this very distressing and in hindsight my remedy was to try continually build new foundations or engage in anything to the point of distraction.

Your experience above indicates (at least in my opinion) why religion exists... not knowing can be fucking scary. Even the sketchiest of stories/answer can grab a following when you are paralyzed with the fear of unknowing. Learning to be okay with not knowing holds some pretty serious potential for liberative living (pretty sure I just made up a new word there... 'liberative'. Spell check is freaking out, hahahaha). punk

Narayan Wrote:I also suffered from anxiety and panic attacks. It felt as though this might be a 'Dark night of the soul' (thats a Christian thing by the way).

Panic and anxiety attacks are nothing to fucking sniff at man... I've had more than my fair share of both. I know Brett has too. When I was in my early 20's I used to get this crazy physical stabbing pain sensation right in my heart (literal) every night as I fell asleep because I was panicking about my girlfriend not initiating sex and I figured that meant I wasn't attractive... it was probably in the top 10 worst sensations I've ever experienced and it went on nearly every night for years.

And yeah, for me, the Dark Night of the Soul thing was definitely the intense questioning period in which I had to look at everything I believed. Even stuff like "am I a human" had to be investigated, and after investigation I couldn't definitively say that I *was* human. But having come out the other side of that period and now (generally) being okay with not knowing what the fuck is happening or where this is going, I can say that now, life is a little less, well... serious. Cheers

Glad you've chosen to join us here man... horns
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03-12-2014, 11:02 PM
Post: #5
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
(01-08-2014 11:38 AM)CarsonZi Wrote:  I still fucking hate admitting when I'm wrong and having to say sorry, even several months after this episode was recorded. That said, it takes me less time now to notice when I am wrong (sometimes it would take days or even weeks to simply just notice that I was indeed wrong) and less time to admit it and apologize. I do however still squirm and internally resist this like a little bitch, but it's getting easier with each time. horns

I also struggle with sorry!! I want to respond to each podcast because I really feel that the value of podcasts lies in the discussion. Your conversation sounds like the male version of my conversations with my friends. I love hearing a male perspective on these issues!
At first, I thought it was a masculine perspective to not say sorry. I was thinking that it made sense because women need communication within the relationship more than men. But actually, I'm the one in my relationship who struggles with sorry. And it all traces back to childhood beliefs about being wrong:
If I say sorry, I'm saying I'm wrong or have done wrong.
If I'm wrong I'm bad and deserve punishment.
It all relates to shame.
I have found that whenever I'm triggered by an accusation or anything that triggers defence within me, it is my ego defending because on a deeper level it believes the accusation is true. That I AM wrong. I AM bad.
I, I, I. Just like Carson's "I am special" is actually defending against "I am not special."
It is such a deep sense of shame. I work hard on it. It is a problem passed down for generations on my moms side of the family and I don't wish to pass it on.
I have contacted many people over the years to apologize for things they don't even remember. I find that sitting in I'm sorry and really humbling to it has been an amazing experience. When I really humble to it and not just hold it as shame.

I love the podcast, the quality is excellent and the convo is wonderful:) XOXO
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03-13-2014, 12:04 AM (This post was last modified: 03-13-2014 12:05 AM by CarsonZi.)
Post: #6
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
Hey Carlene! Awesome that you're going to join us on the forum. I also think that the value of the podcast is in the post podcast discussion and follow up.

I've been pretty negligent in my "sorry's" lately. Had plenty of opportunity but a very small percentage of capitalization. ;) Today however I did apologize to Deanna for being, cough, um... a tad short and terse. Raise The amount of appreciation on her part obviously indicated a severe lacking in recent apologies. Doh

I think my problem with "sorry" stems from this constant internal pressure to be seen as "perfect." I need to take a closer look at that.

And shame is not something I notice often but when I do, it's usually related to how I think others are seeing me as a parent, like when my kids are making crude jokes in the grocery store looking like dirty hippies. It happens. Shock

Again, super awesome to have you here. metal

snd
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03-13-2014, 01:15 AM
Post: #7
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
Thanks for the welcome!! I'd love to do The Work with you on I'm sorry. Fuck it's juicy! I hate saying it most if the time. But I am actually sorry most of the time. Perfectionism is a disease. Hereditary and contagious. Saying sorry is like puking up gasoline if you're believing that you have to be perfect because the ego would rather die. I've noticed lately that it's because it believes that it's admitting to "being" wrong, emphasis on being, rather than having made a mistake, or taken incorrect action. Does that resonate? It's like if I say I'm sorry I lose everything. I lose rights, power, freedom of expression, or even the right to exist. It's been just the last year I've noticed how it's a disease in my family. If you say sorry, you are admitting guilt and will suffer the consequences of that verdict. Jesus! Talk about conditioning! My poor husband. And so here I sit, feeling truly sorry to my husband for how stubborn I can be...
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03-13-2014, 09:34 AM
Post: #8
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
(03-13-2014 01:15 AM)Carlene Wrote:  I'd love to do The Work with you on I'm sorry. Fuck it's juicy! I hate saying it most if the time. But I am actually sorry most of the time.

Wanna try doing The Work with me on the forum for all to read? Maybe someone (other than me) will get something from it?

If you are actually sorry most of the time then I think you're kicking my ass in the unwinding process. I still hold so strongly to the belief that I am always right that I rarely feel sorry... even when in hindsight it's obvious that I should feel REALLY sorry.

(03-13-2014 01:15 AM)Carlene Wrote:  Perfectionism is a disease. Hereditary and contagious.

This is a powerful statement (for me). If I look at my childhood I can see that my parents have never, ever said that they are sorry to me. I don't think I can even find one example of when either of my parents even admitted fault... they are always right. I think this possibly set me up for a lifetime of trying to "be right" all the time. I've never seen this before now though so I need some time to look closer at it before I jump to the conclusion that I didn't do something on my own to end up with this specific conditioning.

(03-13-2014 01:15 AM)Carlene Wrote:  I've noticed lately that it's because it believes that it's admitting to "being" wrong, emphasis on being, rather than having made a mistake, or taken incorrect action. Does that resonate?

Totally. Admitting that I am wrong is like admitting I'm flawed. The ego recoils in horror at that shit.

(03-13-2014 01:15 AM)Carlene Wrote:  If you say sorry, you are admitting guilt and will suffer the consequences of that verdict. Jesus! Talk about conditioning! My poor husband.

We're really in the same shoes Carlene... my poor wife! And poor us too! What a heavy burden to bear this constant need to be right... perhaps we can go through some unwinding together and start to soften this need to always be perfect.

snd
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03-13-2014, 01:23 PM
Post: #9
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
I'd love to do The Work with you here. Id love to record it verbally and then transcribe it if you're willing. If you want you could even post your Judge-Your-Neighbour worksheet beforehand. I'd be willing to as well. I think that one thing people can get is to really get petty and ugly on the JYN. The less enlightened, the better. Then if we're willing to die, to really fall at the feet of imperfection and being wrong, we could unravel a bit more.
I don't do The Work on general thoughts anymore. I do it on specific situations, which leaves me zero room to wriggle or cop out. If I do it on general thoughts, I lose the thread, disconnect from the thought and end up questioning I am. A wonderful thought to question, but not the point when I'm having a temper tantrum because my Mom is pushing my buttons.

I think that the only way to get past perfectionism is through the shame. Like, dying into the shame fully, grieving the loss of the perfect one, and getting to the other side where there is humility and humbleness. I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone else but it's the only way I've gained any space around I'm sorry, Im wrong, Im right or I have to be perfect.

I really am starting to see how much pain I cause when I don't believe I affect people. I've always felt invisible and like I didn't matter. Like you can't see me if I cover my eyes. If I'm being perfect, you can see me but if I'm not, Im hiding. So I disappear, disconnect, lash out, disengage and act selfishly. Which isn't what I want. I want to be a humble servant, loving the one in front of me. But that requires fully showing up, perfect, imperfect, angry, sad, confused, whatever. Whole-hearted. Present. Just those words would kill me if I really say with what that would mean for my life.

I believe we come into this life with our own path, and possibly even choose the perfect parents to condition us in just the right way so that we have all the ammo we need to wake up. If I am god having this tiny experience, then I chose to feel the pain of perfectionism, and the agony of having to be right all of the time. I chose a difficult self, just to challenge myself. When I see it this way, I feel less angry at myself and my life, but it doesn't make me want out of it any less. My ego still says, Why Me?! I don't want to suffer! I want to be happy! I want to be kind and generous and peaceful and loveable! I want to be perfect! And so the snake eats it's tail.

To let go of wanting to be perfect, special, enlightened, loveable, etc, I think is my goal. Is that true? Hmmmm... No, Actually, I just want to not resist whatever comes up. I want to be willing to be whatever presents itself and just die into it. Like, die all the way through.
I hope someone knows what I mean by that.
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03-13-2014, 08:15 PM
Post: #10
RE: 001 - I'm Sorry
(03-13-2014 01:23 PM)Carlene Wrote:  To let go of wanting to be perfect, special, enlightened, loveable, etc, I think is my goal. Is that true? Hmmmm... No, Actually, I just want to not resist whatever comes up.

Hi Carlene,

I think a goal itself implies resistance in that something can be better than it already is. So your first example should be all inclusive to the second, and happens to be one of my goals as well. Biggrin

(03-13-2014 01:23 PM)Carlene Wrote:  I want to be willing to be whatever presents itself and just die into it. Like, die all the way through.
I hope someone knows what I mean by that.

I do. Thanks for sharing. metal
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